Very interesting to see the data! I'm a big fan of top-down, and can confirm that, yes: they are more of a challenge to write and grade, especially for a top-down, contiguous, set-in sleeve sweater since there is so much going on in the various sizes. But hey--that's why they pay me the big bucks $$ :)
Thanks Mary! Great to hear it from someone who actually writes and grades them. Sounds like not much has changed since Walker's time 😂 Top-down contiguous set-in sleeves across a full size range is a lot of maths before you even get to fitting the pattern repeats. I've been struggling enough with a colourwork mitten in two sizes, so I can't imagine a whole sweater. Hats off to you!
I wonder, though, why yokes are so exaggeratedly deep. It's not only for the sake of patterning (and it is, of course, possible to knit a patterned sleeve). Just take a look at the models in Ozetta's oversized sweaters with their arms pressed to their bodies to hide that they are wearing swonchos.
Good point, I think a certain fit being trendy is part of it. In the past decade or so there have been lots of popular sweaters with insane amounts of ease. I suspect some of it is to reduce the number of sizes needed, perhaps to appear size-inclusive without doing the extra work. These sweaters also appear cozy in an instagram photo, hiding the fact that they restrict movement in real life.
The reason for sewn sweaters is that the designers came from a sewing background. My friend and I knit sample sweaters for a yarn company back in the 1980s. At that time, they had a designer that didn't knit! Her designs were given to a knitter to write and errors were common. Sewn sweaters can provide a better fit. And there is less weight to deal with during the knitting part.
Knitters publishing their own designs is a mixed blessing. It's easy to overlook problems with a design, since it makes sense to you as written. Also, after finally having a standardized set of abbreviations, we see designers inventing their own. New knitters think the failure of their project is their fault. Sometimes, it's the pattern.
Thanks for sharing this, so cool that you knitted samples for a yarn company! A designer who didn't knit would explain a lot of the errors. I'd guess machine knitting was part of it too, since a lot of designers would have learnt their trade designing for knitting machines in a commercial setting.
Agreed on indie patterns, tech editors and test knitters make such a difference. It's a shame to see new knitters pulling their hair out over what turns out to be a bad pattern.
My favorite was a pattern from a Fillatra di Crochet magazine. It was a one piece, dolman sleeve sweater. When I got to the sleeve instructions, they indicated decreases, as if it was a single piece. I trashed the sweater at that point.
My very first knitting project was an argyle sweater. I swore then I would never knit another. Though now, I'm still adverse to colorwork knitting. I'm curious about it. Also, if you're going to buy a set in pattern for a more tailored work, make sure the designer understands how a set in shoulder works. I have a poorly written pattern for a doll for my granddaughter and the designer doesn't seem to understand set in sleeves or maybe it's me but this sweater pattern the way it is written is horrible. And it's a paid pattern.
An argyle sweater is definitely an ambitious first project! Just thinking of all those ends to weave in makes me dizzy.
The geometry involved in a more tailored construction can be quite complex, but there are lots of fantastic resources out there from people who have done lots of the hard work. I agree a good designer should understand it. Some knitters may know how to modify a pattern to suit their needs, but that is not a given.
That doll sweater sounds frustrating. Could it be that it is written for the proportions of a particular type of doll? I’m not so familiar with doll patterns, so I was wondering if the shaping may be different than for real people.
Very intetesting! Thank you for doing all the counting. I'm curious to find out which other design/construction choices became more popular once the yarn companies lost their monopoly on publishing patterns
I knitted a top-down sweater quite recently and while it is beautiful and colourful, it is really unflattering as the yoke is too long. It was hard to shorten it due to the pattern. In contrast, I've just finished a sweater in pieces–front, back, sleeves–and spent time sewing it together. It took ages as I made a few errors but it was so satisfying to finish a flattering, well-shaped garment. It is beautiful and stylish. I understand why top-down designs are popular–design, ease, etc., but there are good alternatives.
Your yoke problem is such a familiar one! I agree there are pros and cons to both, and technically any shape and fit can be achieved either way. But modifying a top-down seamless sweater is often more complicated than working flat in pieces, as you found.
Another reason I enjoy bottom-up is that all the complicated shaping is left right to the end, when you're already familiar with the yarn and any patterning. With top-down, you're establishing the pattern, getting used to the yarn, and keeping track of increases right at the start. That can lead to errors right next to your face, probably the most noticeable place.
It's great that we have so many options and can choose what works best for each project. Congratulations on the new sweater, it sounds lovely!
I've always felt that sweaters with deep yokes feel more luxurious. Now I wonder whether that's some sort of vestigial memory that yokes take longer, so a bigger one equals a more expensive sweater, at least from a time investment. And a yarn investment, too, since the yoke is often effectively a double thickness. Very thought-provoking! I guess the "yoke" is on us if we're not knitting a thick-yoked sweater...or not on us, depending on who's wearing the sweater!
Love the pun! I think you might be onto something. In Shetland the yoke was the slow, hand-knitted part, so keeping it shallow made the sweater cheaper to make, and a deep yoke is definitely more of an investment in time and yarn. Warmer too, with all those floats!
Fascinating. Recently I was doing some research on the Bohus Cooperative and your analysis is very helpful in understanding the progress of the yoked sweater. A great read.
It’s very interesting to understand what factors influenced sweater construction at different times. Thank you for sharing this!
I love top-down construction despite the challenges in instruction writing. Barbara Walker’s top-down methods cover drop shoulder as well among other things, which I’ve adapted in my own designs.
Thank you! You're right, her dropped-shoulder ski sweater is in there too. Going through the book for this, I was amazed how much is in it. Great to know designers are still using her work 50 years later.
Very interesting to see the data! I'm a big fan of top-down, and can confirm that, yes: they are more of a challenge to write and grade, especially for a top-down, contiguous, set-in sleeve sweater since there is so much going on in the various sizes. But hey--that's why they pay me the big bucks $$ :)
Thanks Mary! Great to hear it from someone who actually writes and grades them. Sounds like not much has changed since Walker's time 😂 Top-down contiguous set-in sleeves across a full size range is a lot of maths before you even get to fitting the pattern repeats. I've been struggling enough with a colourwork mitten in two sizes, so I can't imagine a whole sweater. Hats off to you!
It requires being an Excel Ninja!
I wonder, though, why yokes are so exaggeratedly deep. It's not only for the sake of patterning (and it is, of course, possible to knit a patterned sleeve). Just take a look at the models in Ozetta's oversized sweaters with their arms pressed to their bodies to hide that they are wearing swonchos.
Really enjoyed this! There is rarely anything said about how yoke depth changes if row gauge does, and how wonky this can go in larger sizes.
Good point, I think a certain fit being trendy is part of it. In the past decade or so there have been lots of popular sweaters with insane amounts of ease. I suspect some of it is to reduce the number of sizes needed, perhaps to appear size-inclusive without doing the extra work. These sweaters also appear cozy in an instagram photo, hiding the fact that they restrict movement in real life.
The reason for sewn sweaters is that the designers came from a sewing background. My friend and I knit sample sweaters for a yarn company back in the 1980s. At that time, they had a designer that didn't knit! Her designs were given to a knitter to write and errors were common. Sewn sweaters can provide a better fit. And there is less weight to deal with during the knitting part.
Knitters publishing their own designs is a mixed blessing. It's easy to overlook problems with a design, since it makes sense to you as written. Also, after finally having a standardized set of abbreviations, we see designers inventing their own. New knitters think the failure of their project is their fault. Sometimes, it's the pattern.
Thanks for sharing this, so cool that you knitted samples for a yarn company! A designer who didn't knit would explain a lot of the errors. I'd guess machine knitting was part of it too, since a lot of designers would have learnt their trade designing for knitting machines in a commercial setting.
Agreed on indie patterns, tech editors and test knitters make such a difference. It's a shame to see new knitters pulling their hair out over what turns out to be a bad pattern.
My favorite was a pattern from a Fillatra di Crochet magazine. It was a one piece, dolman sleeve sweater. When I got to the sleeve instructions, they indicated decreases, as if it was a single piece. I trashed the sweater at that point.
Oh no, that's painful, especially that far into a one-piece sweater! I'd have given up too.
My very first knitting project was an argyle sweater. I swore then I would never knit another. Though now, I'm still adverse to colorwork knitting. I'm curious about it. Also, if you're going to buy a set in pattern for a more tailored work, make sure the designer understands how a set in shoulder works. I have a poorly written pattern for a doll for my granddaughter and the designer doesn't seem to understand set in sleeves or maybe it's me but this sweater pattern the way it is written is horrible. And it's a paid pattern.
An argyle sweater is definitely an ambitious first project! Just thinking of all those ends to weave in makes me dizzy.
The geometry involved in a more tailored construction can be quite complex, but there are lots of fantastic resources out there from people who have done lots of the hard work. I agree a good designer should understand it. Some knitters may know how to modify a pattern to suit their needs, but that is not a given.
That doll sweater sounds frustrating. Could it be that it is written for the proportions of a particular type of doll? I’m not so familiar with doll patterns, so I was wondering if the shaping may be different than for real people.
Very intetesting! Thank you for doing all the counting. I'm curious to find out which other design/construction choices became more popular once the yarn companies lost their monopoly on publishing patterns
Thanks. It’s a fascinating topic! I’ll definitely be doing more of this kind of analysis in the future.
I knitted a top-down sweater quite recently and while it is beautiful and colourful, it is really unflattering as the yoke is too long. It was hard to shorten it due to the pattern. In contrast, I've just finished a sweater in pieces–front, back, sleeves–and spent time sewing it together. It took ages as I made a few errors but it was so satisfying to finish a flattering, well-shaped garment. It is beautiful and stylish. I understand why top-down designs are popular–design, ease, etc., but there are good alternatives.
Your yoke problem is such a familiar one! I agree there are pros and cons to both, and technically any shape and fit can be achieved either way. But modifying a top-down seamless sweater is often more complicated than working flat in pieces, as you found.
Another reason I enjoy bottom-up is that all the complicated shaping is left right to the end, when you're already familiar with the yarn and any patterning. With top-down, you're establishing the pattern, getting used to the yarn, and keeping track of increases right at the start. That can lead to errors right next to your face, probably the most noticeable place.
It's great that we have so many options and can choose what works best for each project. Congratulations on the new sweater, it sounds lovely!
I've always felt that sweaters with deep yokes feel more luxurious. Now I wonder whether that's some sort of vestigial memory that yokes take longer, so a bigger one equals a more expensive sweater, at least from a time investment. And a yarn investment, too, since the yoke is often effectively a double thickness. Very thought-provoking! I guess the "yoke" is on us if we're not knitting a thick-yoked sweater...or not on us, depending on who's wearing the sweater!
Love the pun! I think you might be onto something. In Shetland the yoke was the slow, hand-knitted part, so keeping it shallow made the sweater cheaper to make, and a deep yoke is definitely more of an investment in time and yarn. Warmer too, with all those floats!
That was a fun read. I learned yoke knitting on a lopi pattern and have always knitted bottom up.
Thanks Kate! Lopi is such a classic way to learn yokes. Many of the lopapeysa patterns are still knitted bottom-up, which suits my preference.
Fascinating. Recently I was doing some research on the Bohus Cooperative and your analysis is very helpful in understanding the progress of the yoked sweater. A great read.
Thank you! The Bohus designs are so beautiful and it’s such a fascinating story in of itself, I'd love to hear what you found.
💯 Excellent 😊
Thank you! 😊
It’s very interesting to understand what factors influenced sweater construction at different times. Thank you for sharing this!
I love top-down construction despite the challenges in instruction writing. Barbara Walker’s top-down methods cover drop shoulder as well among other things, which I’ve adapted in my own designs.
Thank you! You're right, her dropped-shoulder ski sweater is in there too. Going through the book for this, I was amazed how much is in it. Great to know designers are still using her work 50 years later.